Lab Notes with Russ Hamilton Episode 6 - Meet them where they are

Russ Hamilton: 0:00

From Little Mountain Sound in Vancouver, British Columbia. This is Lab Notes. And now here's your host, Russ Hamilton. Hello, again, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm getting a lot of correspondence communication from people who are under a tremendous amount of stress. Some people are more conscious of it than others. It kind of doesn't matter. But as you listen to this, you could be under a lot of stress, geopolitical situations, health issues, finance, economy. I mean the list, we don't need to revisit it. You know what your stress is. So how about a little exercise? Let's do an exercise that might relieve some of that. First of all, let's breathe. Fill the lungs from the bottom up and just let it out. Just breathe and relax your shoulders and relax the jaw and just relax. Feel your lungs from the bottom up, good. I want you to think about a moment in your life when you were really joyful, tremendously happy just highlight of your experience as a human being. Just a moment in your life that you would point to and go- that that was awesome. And just think about that moment. Think about where you were and who was there or who wasn't or what you were doing and relive it. Let the whatever feelings were true back. Then see if you can recreate them now because that moment was so joyful. And now the exercise is can you create an artifact that represents that moment in your life? It can be a word on a sticky note. It can be a small drawing. It can be, it doesn't have to be a significant artifact, but something that will remind you of that moment, create that artifact, write that word down, draw that picture, type those two things together, whatever they are, create an object that will help you remember that moment. And, then when you're feeling particularly panicked or you're under a tremendous amount of stress and you're worrying, pull that artifact out, hold it in your hand, put it into place. You can see and remind yourself that tremendous joy and happiness is possible. And, if you can think of another moment in your life, that was amazing, wonderful, and create a second artifact. This can become a practice- considering the moments of your life. Chances are you already have photographs, but if not, and maybe even if you do, build an artifact, it doesn't have to be much, but just a thing that you can look at, or you can hold that will remind you of the brightest moments in your life. See how many of these things you can collect and surround yourself with them, or just put them in your pocket and just jingle them in your pocket. If you start feeling low, I find that a really useful exercise. And, I invite you to take part. Welcome to Lab Notes. I'm your host, Russ Hamilton on our show today, we have some tremendous guests as always. These people are just so generous to talk about their process and how they are developing and growing. And I'm just so proud to talk to every single one of them. We're going to talk to a guest in Vancouver, British Columbia. We're going to talk to a guest in Mexico city, and then we'll travel to New York city and hear from somebody who's doing some extraordinary work. And again, we'll talk to all of these people. I just want you to know that you are tuning into the Connection Lab Network and we are global. Let's get started. Our first guest is Valerie Nishi, Valerie, how do you, and I know each other?

Valerie Nishi: 3:49

Well, we haven't sorted past don't we Russ. The things we've seen. I believe we first met through our mutual friend, Mark Frein. I believe there was a client that I was working with and he wanted me to meet you because you were doing some cool stuff. And, we wanted to explore working with some executives and bringing in some really more interactive and experiential communications development. So that's, I think that's when we got you and I got on a call and I remember thinking, wow, I want to get to know you.

Russ Hamilton: 4:31

I remember, I think you were just setting up or had recently set up the women's leadership program.

Valerie Nishi: 4:38

Ah, yes.

Russ Hamilton: 4:39

Was that fairly new for you? Because I remember that was a fairly hot topic.

Valerie Nishi: 4:43

For sure. It was not, it was actually not new. We've been experimenting in Alberta with the Women's Leadership Forum, which was a huge 3000 person, you know, adventure over the period of four years. But we were just experimenting with a new pilot project right around the time that you and I met. I'm thinking we were working with some executive women. Yes. So it was all very timely because of course in that particular grouping of people, this whole notion of how do we communicate more effectively? How do we connect more effectively was just very timely.

Russ Hamilton: 5:23

Valerie, you are an associate faculty at Royal Roads University. You are also a Fellow graduate. You are a fellow, weren't you a Fellow?

Valerie Nishi: 5:32

I am a PhD graduate there. I am not a Fellow. I think that takes years and years and years and years. I appreciate your efficiency. I put it on my to do list.

Russ Hamilton: 5:44

Tell me about your work. What are you working on now?

Valerie Nishi: 5:48

My work and my practice- yes, I am a leadership development coach and consultant. I'm a bit of a creative disruptor. I enjoy exploring the intersection of art business and leadership. I also like to consider myself a humanist. So I'm, I'm often tying my work to those endeavors that make the planet and make humanity better. Yeah, I work with leaders to help them grow their practice and have more impact in the work that they're doing and the work of those that they serve.

Russ Hamilton: 6:25

Nice. What do you remember about your first Connection Lab experience?

Valerie Nishi: 6:29

Well, if you recall Russ and I actually, I didn't get into the detail of our sorted past, but I actually had the pleasure of doing three Connection Labs as a participant because you and I worked at the Refinery Leadership Partners and brought that into the firm as part of our development practice. And then I also had the opportunity to, to facilitate Connection Lab as well. So I have sort of just wonderful portfolio of experience with Connection Lab. So what do I remember?

Russ Hamilton: 7:05

Right. I always, I always like to ask people because I'm always curious how we learn anything. So what do you remember about coming into the room? You know, seeing who else was there learning, you know, having early conversation in the setup, doing the exercise and then set it, you know, what do you remember about that?

Valerie Nishi: 7:22

So, so for me way back, you know, the first time that I encountered Connection Lab, it was a bit terrifying because it was, you know, there was a lot of unknowns, what are we going to be doing? What's this gonna look like, uh, what, you know, what will be expected? And I remember the first experience being really fascinating because I immediately became aware of really how tied to my little piece of writeup that I did and trying to get it perfect, trying to get it, you know, right. And, this became quite distracting. So I found myself quite in my head and worrying about, how it was going to come across. And, then I really recall as we were moving through that experience and Connection Lab, it really struck me that what really, um, resonated for people was to, to hold that relationship with them in a, in a different way than I had previously thought about. You know, you, you get up there, you, you look at people which was very different than seeing people. So the experience of letting the participants or the audience be the ones in control of signaling with their hand, when they felt seen was a very active form of feedback. So that, you know, as, as a performer and as a participant, I could immediately see that just delivering content, just kind of standing up there and going through the motions and looking, under control was not what was really making a difference for people.

Russ Hamilton: 9:10

Yeah. Yeah. And that's an aha moment for a lot of people.

Valerie Nishi: 9:14

Absolutely. Yeah. Because I think it flies in the face of what we've been taught about good technical communication. And you're a teacher now, well, I'm a facilitator teacher of organizational design and development. One of the things that we do talk a lot about is using ourselves as instruments and developing yourself as instruments. And so I really see the connection between the work that we did in Connection Lab and for OD practitioners w ho are needing to influence and build relationships with people from all different parts of the organization. And under some pretty, you know, high pressure and pretty high pressure environments.

Russ Hamilton: 9:59

So that's the first question in the six box model is how do I show up under stress? And of course, if we build it out, how, how does the organization show up under stress and how does it want to, and what does it want to get better at? And these, I think are increasingly useful questions as we explore how we diagnose as an organization. How do we self-diagnose have you worked with organizations that self-diagnosed poorly?

Valerie Nishi: 10:26

Well, yes.

Russ Hamilton: 10:28

So we probably shouldn't laugh that hard, but yeah.

Valerie Nishi: 10:34

Yeah. Well, yes. Well, isn't it the hardest thing to do, you know, self awareness, self reflection, and, and to do that at an organizational level.

Russ Hamilton: 10:45

What, what, what, what comes up for me is permission to fail. Then I need practice at self-diagnosis. I need practice and it's fascinating because a recent conversation you and I had, you know, was what if I'm not as good at the practice as maybe I thought,

Valerie Nishi: 11:01

Yes. I think, I think this is a really big one because increasingly whether it's at the individual or at the organizational level, I think fear is one of the biggest drivers of people holding back, you know, from their greatness really because they're afraid to be judged or they're, there's a lot of self judgment, you know, well that takes place. And so and then, you know, there's nothing like the present to remind us, you know, what's going on in the world right now, as we're trying to battle the the COVID-19 is that, that kind of fear and anxiety can be very contagious. And so how do we create, you know, calm centers, within ourselves and in relationship with others when we are in these high pressure environments. And so I do think that this is a it's a big issue, if not the most important one of what I'm seeing in organizations

Russ Hamilton: 12:00

Yup. Me too. And in individuals who practice, practice, practice, use the language and are convinced that their practice is, you know, healthy and good and transparent and developmental. And only under stress are only after asking the question so long, do we start actually seeing that under certain kinds of stress, we're not behaving the way we think we are, that we're not contributing to our community the way we think we are. And if we can see that, this is why I say if the definition of success is to notice without judgment or correction, just notice. Oh my goodness, am I not showing up the way I think I am? Am I impacting my community and my relationships in a different way, in a way that is not what I want? Oh, Oh no. Oh no.

Valerie Nishi: 12:58

And that moment of insight. Yeah. Well, as you're describing this, it reminds me of, it was actually a group that you and I were working with a fairly conservative, mature industry client. And it was a group of executive, all male. I think there were about five or six individuals in the group. And I remember distinctly when the first person decided to embrace that permission, to fail and, and revealed to the rest of the group, something very personal, something very, that they were challenged and struggling with. And how quickly that willingness to be vulnerable turned into this sort of an energetic shift in the room where everyone just sort of these boundaries melted away. And then all of a sudden they were able to trust and to support one another and to hear the challenges and be able to, you know, to work through some of those together. And it was really profound. And I don't think that they had had that experience. In fact, I think they had described that this was just a, such a, a different way to be together. And I think that that's really, um, that's really critical in these time is to be real.

Russ Hamilton: 14:18

We say it right, be real. And yet the question I keep asking is what is the competency of being real? It's not enough to point at the objective and go be more of the objective.

Valerie Nishi: 14:28

Yeah.

Russ Hamilton: 14:30

Find that. So infuriating. No, no, no. What is the process? What is the practice that's going to help me get to where I want to be? Cause pointing at the outcome is almost useless, especially if we haven't co-created it. If I have self-diagnosed and maybe I'm not very good at that. And I point at some outcome and say, be more of the outcome. Well, okay. But how, what is the practice? What is the thing I need to raise my consciousness around or practice or be what is the competency? So I remember working with you and a group of others in New York. Remember module two.

Valerie Nishi: 15:09

Indeed. I cannot forget it

Russ Hamilton: 15:13

As, as hard as you've tried. And yet it was an extraordinary day with some extraordinary people building on our experience. What do you remember about that day?

Valerie Nishi: 15:24

I remember that this was about demand this particular session and being able to, to really bring our call to action in a way that serves our audience. Yes. And I remember that shift that happened, and it was really very much a, not just a shift in my thinking about about how to, to, to bring more of my own sort of my own sense of self and my own authority, but it was also a very, physical and emotional experience. So very integrated. And I remember very much coming away recognizing that, that there was this holistic sense of presence that I experienced, of course, with guidance from you and the group that created and tapped into a power that I had not, I guess you just sort of think, well, I just didn't know I had. When people start to respond to you and you realize that, you know, I have this ability to bring more of my authentic presence and who I am and what I believe to be important in a way that connects with other people. And for me, that actual experience of doing that well, it certainly builds confidence and it's affirming and it helps to build the next stepping stone for doing more of that. As you say, practice,

Russ Hamilton: 17:00

And as an audience member, I just remember feeling so satisfied that you came into your power, that you stood up there and with feet, shoulder width apart and full breath built trust in the room by making a demand. Built trust in the room, because the qual, the quality of relationship, especially with you is always so present. I think it's an innate skill with you that I really, I really liked you raising the consciousness. You know, what is this skill that I have about creating relationship, but we cannot make effective demands on audience members that do not feel seen and heard. So when the audience member raised their hand, they felt seen and heard you called them to action. You made a demand on them that was present for you. You were sharing a demand, was resonating for you with them. And it built trust. And it built an empowerment in the group and it built a desire to work with you. And I think the group's experience of you was relief because that's how we see you is in that power. And we need you to make that demand on us. We need you to tell us what you want us to do. We may disagree. We may think there's another word or a different call to action, but now we're having a conversation about how to move forward as a group. Not whether or not we feel seen or heard, or whether or not you're the quarterback in the huddle, your calling the play. And it just helped all of us feel better. So that I remember that experience of you as an audience member. And I remember that kind of rocked you a little bit.

Valerie Nishi: 18:41

Yeah, well, I mean, I think for me, it's to have so many people that I respected in the room and I've worked with and to have that level of support, it was very, emotional and it was validating and it was incredibly inspiring. So, that's the power of having t his very in-the-moment kind of experience with each other and be willing to go to those places where we're on that edge, you know, on that edge of, of our own development and be able to kind of jump in. And I think that's the beauty.

Russ Hamilton: 19:24

Yup. Are you willing to share what you're working on now? What are you trying to get better at?

Valerie Nishi: 19:27

Yes, of course. Always, I am working on being more present. As simple and complex is that is

Russ Hamilton: 19:36

Yeah. And simple and as complex as that is just being present. Yes. Tremendous. I have one more question for you, and then I'm going to ask you if you have any questions for me. Awesome. Okay. Uh, are you going to listen to this interview?

Valerie Nishi: 19:52

What kind of question is that?

Russ Hamilton: 19:55

It's just,

Valerie Nishi: 19:58

Of course, of course I will listen. Of course I will listen to it because I'm listening to all of the things that you're doing, because there's incredibly interesting learning from all of it. So I will listen to it. Yes. I really appreciate that. But it's fun question. Right? I ask everybody, I talk to now, are you going to listen to this? And how many people say yes,

Russ Hamilton: 20:18

So kind of everybody, but some people are pretty slow to get there. Some people I've had, I've had one guest recently say, ah, I'll read the comments about how I did before I tune in and listen, because if the comments are, dude, you suck, man, this is brutal. Then he may not listen to what the interview was, but chances are he's going to, because it's kind of an extension of the exercise, right? What if listening, listening to myself in this interview? That's what if you know, how do I show up under that stress? How do I want to, and what do I want to get at?

Valerie Nishi: 20:53

No, you never told me there were comments for us.

Russ Hamilton: 20:56

I haven't actually seen any comments yet except for ones that were sent to me personally. Yeah, there might be. That's nice. Good. Oh, I'm so pleased. Uh, do you have any questions for me?

Valerie Nishi: 21:06

I have many, but I would like to ask, this one, what is Connection Lab the possibility of.

Russ Hamilton: 21:14

Ooh, great question. Oh, what is the possibility? So what we're in service of is co-creating a world about standing communicators and that's, what's possible. That's what's possible is not just pockets or a few people who are outstanding communicators, but everybody in the world inviting others into relationship acknowledging when we feel seen and heard useful calls to action, making demands on each other that build trust, harnessing the talent around us, the ambition through imagery and imagination, storytelling atmosphere, all the modules, leadership, leadership at a critical juncture, interactive discussion, maximizing digital communication, all of these video calls. And you know, what, if I can help a community feel seen and heard when I have a live audience, when I have media in my ear, when I have some Skype or zoom call? Co-creating a world of outstanding communicators, which means we need a whole bunch of facilitators for this. We need, we need people who are talking about this and practicing and facilitating. So this is the mission is to create the content that can help people do that, to create the programs that will help develop and create these facilitators like you, and then just spreading it faster than any terrible disease or economic tragedy or at a time when we really need each other. That's what's possible. That's in my mind, I want to be able to travel to any country in the world and meet people, speaking a different language and with a completely different set of cultural geographic predispositions, aware of these principles and consciously practicing them and helping us get the best out of each other and create policy program that brings out that helps us reach our potential as a species.

Valerie Nishi: 23:33

Well, that's all I can say. Go. Awesome.

Russ Hamilton: 23:38

Good. Thank you for joining us today.

Valerie Nishi: 23:40

Thank you, Russ. And all the work you do high-five.

Break Promo: 23:47

You're listening to Lab Notes part of the Connection Lab Network. For more information about our workshops and executive development programs, email us at info@connectionlaboratory.com or go to our website at connectionlaboratory.com.

Russ Hamilton: 24:01

We continue our conversations today in Mexico city. We're talking to Reilly Dow. Hello, Reilly. Hello. Thank you for having me. Thank you for joining us. You are a graphic facilitator, that's a correct description?

Reilly Dow: 24:14

That is a correct description. Yes. I'm a graphic designer.

Russ Hamilton: 24:16

Can you describe what that is for people who may not know?

Reilly Dow: 24:19

Of course it means I listen and draw in various contexts supporting people in their learning in their sense-making in their defining action- various kinds of conversations and exchanges. So we use visuals to document, to reflect, to make sense of things together. Um, those visuals are usually at a large scale so that we can see them in real time and then they have a function during and after these different kinds of sessions.

Russ Hamilton: 24:49

Yeah. So my experience of your work is that it has a profound effect on both the quality and retention of organizational meetings at every level that there is an artifact created on the wall that is compelling. It's not just my hieroglyphic scribbling. It's actually extremely artful. And there's almost a call to action in the artifacts that you create in these, these pages that hang on the wall of the conversation as it unfolds, it's a profoundly artful experience. It's also directly in service of whatever the meeting is in service of and what people are trying to get better at. So, I would just promote it loudly if, you're listening and you have an organization that could use some artifacts around organizational development or calls to action or process that you engage Riley or some other graphic facilitator because it is extremely valuable. Wonderful. Thank you. Yup. Um, so there's a few things I want to talk to you about today. Shall we talk about the protest in Mexico city? What, tell me what's happening there. When I say protest, what, and people don't know what I'm talking about. What am I talking about?

Reilly Dow: 26:15

So yesterday, March 8th international women's day was a big day here in Mexico City. And I think in a lot of other places as well, but here it has a specific importance I would say. I don't know the numbers yet of how many primarily womenand people who identify as non binary and also some men, uh, just how many people were marching together yesterday. A lot. Safe to say a large number, um, a number that gives a lot of hope and feeling of, um, of being in it together. I can tell you that definitely thousands. But when you're on the ground, it's hard to know exactly how many people are around you. So that was yesterday and we marched from, uh, what's called the Monumental Revolution, which is in a place of importance here in Mexico into the main city Plaza, which oddly was, was kind of blocked off, I think, sort of strategically by the city. So that was interesting to kind of confront that as well. But yeah, Mexico is in a crisis of violence against women in many different forms. And so that is, it was it's, it's specifically really important for us, I think right now to show up. To show up in, in the messiness and the pain and the, all of the things that implies and sort of be, be in the big space together.

Russ Hamilton: 27:44

What does it mean? And maybe the answer is nothing, but what does it mean to look through this Connection Lab methodology at that protest? How do I show up under stress? How do I want to, what do I want to get better at-relationship to self content?

Reilly Dow: 27:58

Yeah, that's a really wonderful question. I think there are multiple forms of stress and I think this is something so personal and so collective, that it's really interesting to look at it through this lens because it's very, it's political, but it's not about parties or it's not about kind of the formal structures of politics. I think it's political and just a collective sense. So when we talk about relationship to self there's a lot of work to do. I think at the individual level of figuring out just what all of this means to us, regardless of one's gender breathing.

Russ Hamilton: 28:34

Breathing... You created co-created this menu, this Connection Lab, lab notes menu. I did. I share this with all the guests and they love it. Oh, I'm so glad. It's this menu. It's like, Oh, what do I have today? It's like sitting down at a diner and going,'Oh, do I want the special do I want with, Oh, do I do what I had last time?'

Reilly Dow: 28:58

Right, right. So it doesn't feel scary. I mean, now that I'm on the other side and I've been presented with it, I didn't feel scared by it, which is probably good.

Russ Hamilton: 29:11

Let's call it. Good. Just so it has a name. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you like about this one sheet? What would you like more of? What would you like less of?

Reilly Dow: 29:21

I think of what I like about this one-sheet presentation is, is the simplicity of it. I would say kind of invitational simplicity, although there's a lot behind it. Wow. Yes. Holy moly. There's a lot behind it because how do I show up under stress? You know, that's a whole big deal right there. Yeah. A lot, but it's a lot, but it's like, okay, it's presented to me in a way that I feel like I can enter into it, enter into conversation with it. Right. Um, and then there are these interesting kind of things along the bottom that are kind of considerations, you know, these extra considerations. And so that's what I like about it is that it feels, it feels like it it's respectful of how much is behind each of these questions and considerations. And all of that is present and yet it's not overwhelming. Right.

Russ Hamilton: 30:15

Is the value of this model the way it's presented. I love because it feels like low hanging fruit. It doesn't feel complicated. I think everybody who's trying to get better at who and what they are and a better partner, community member, business person, whatever they are, needs a methodology that's simple, even though the practice of it can be really challenging, at least the questions and the relationships and the distinctions are simple. Right.

Reilly Dow: 30:40

I think so too. Because as you say, the work of it, it's not necessarily going to be easy, right?

Russ Hamilton: 30:45

Yeah. Oh my I'm looking at it now too. And I'm just holding it, there's just a lifetime of work.

Reilly Dow: 30:52

Yeah.

Russ Hamilton: 30:53

At least there's a lifetime of work here that I think is going to help me be kinder and better to myself and to my people.

Reilly Dow: 30:59

Right. And so if you were living a life without doing that lifetime of work, I feel like that would be less good. So this is presenting us with kind of a few different pathways or threads of exploration that we can kind of pull at- right? And go, Hmm. Okay. Like you say, isn't that interesting. Right. I love it. So I like all of that about it. I really do. And I was reflecting a little bit before the call and thinking, okay, so what's my way into this. What might we talk about today? And, and I was also just really noticing how I'm connected, all of these things are, but I would also kind of point that out because they really do live together, you know? It's pairings. And it's like, can you really separate self and content and audience, like it's all happening at the same time. And so that's important I think, to pay attention to as well.

Russ Hamilton: 31:59

You did a Connection Lab recently. What do you remember about that? We did. Oh my, what do you remember about?

Reilly Dow: 32:07

Yeah, so that was, that was a wonderful experience. I remember enjoying the hosting aspect of it. On the level of the space we were in and having you here and, you know, I was enjoying the role of, okay, I'm going to host people in my studio space, which is a very personal space and we're going to show up together and do some work, but there was something really lovely about all being in that room together. So just, that was one thing. And I think, I didn't know all of the people in the room that, well, some are friends, Roberto, who we had never met was incredible.

Russ Hamilton: 32:44

People need to know about Roberto quickly.

Reilly Dow: 32:47

Yeah. So he, he is a, I believe a member of the organization that we share our offices with Ojos Que Sienten and he is blind and he was just so present for the work that we were doing. I mean, I'd love to hear your reflections on it because I was just absolutely so excited because it made us, I think, more aware of some of the aspects of being in relationship that we might take for granted. Right. When people can, when people can see each other and connect in that way and when they can't. Yeah. So I really loved that aspect of our group

Russ Hamilton: 33:21

First blind participant in the entire Connection Lab history- white cane, dark glasses, cannot see. And one of the things I remember is he sat down and just made himself comfortable and people were coming in and they saw him and I saw the relief on their faces because they weren't sure what was going to happen. They were a little bit nervous about presentation and communication, but they saw him and they went,'Oh, at least I don't have to see.'

Reilly Dow: 33:49

Yeah, yeah. Even just his presence. Right.

Russ Hamilton: 33:52

And then as people were coming in and we were talking and I was terrified, I was so I hadn't been as worried as a facilitator as I was with Roberto in the room, because I was very concerned that this methodology wouldn't work, unless you could see right. Raise your hand when you feel seen and heard- Oh my God, what we're going to do a 10 minute writing exercise. Well, not Roberto.

Reilly Dow: 34:19

That's right. Yeah.

Russ Hamilton: 34:19

This is a train wreck. I remember my heart was in my throat and I was so worried. And then he kind of raised his hand and as we were getting ready to begin and I said, yes, Roberto. And he said, I don't think this is for me. And on my, I just about died. And I said, what do you need Roberto? And he said, I don't speak English very well.

Reilly Dow: 34:39

Right.

Russ Hamilton: 34:40

The issue, it wasn't being blind. It was, he was concerned that he wouldn't speak English very well. So he didn't want to slow down the process for other people.

Reilly Dow: 34:48

Yeah. He was right there with group process. He, yeah, I think he was teaching us a lot. I think there were, we were learning a lot from each other.

Russ Hamilton: 34:57

What do you remember about your experience standing up in front of the room?

Reilly Dow: 35:01

I remember having this feeling of receiving care and attention, which is sometimes hard, but just people, people, their eyeballs are on you and they actually are there for you supporting you and they want you to do well. And I was like, Whoa, what do I do with that? And then, and then I didn't really have to do anything in particular with that, which was kind of a relief, but it was just the noticing and receiving of that noticing and receiving people's attention and support

Russ Hamilton: 35:33

And care. And let's say it love. Right. Yeah.

Reilly Dow: 35:38

And you can, I mean, it's just fascinating to think about accessing that, you know, do we see, do we walk around feeling like the world is against us and how can we tap into those forms of care and support that are maybe all around us and offer those, you know, like how can we kind of activate that more often? I was feeling curious about that. And I was feeling, yeah. I mean, it's, it's an interesting position to be in to have other people kind of looking at you and wanting to feel seeing themselves, you know,

Russ Hamilton: 36:09

And rooting for you, rooting for you. Well, a lot of people struggle with that. A lot of people struggle with being loved and cared for and supported because it goes back to the earlier part of our conversation. They're not worthy in their estimation and their narrative. No, no, no. That's,

Reilly Dow: 36:25

That'd be right. Yeah. Yeah. No, this that can't be because I'm not, I don't deserve that.

Russ Hamilton: 36:32

What happens is I forced my narrative to smother the new information that's unfolding in front of me. No, no, no. They're just being nice. I hear that a lot. No, no. They're just being nice. Really. Should we ask them, are you lying to them just to be nice to the presenter? Uh, no. Right. So how do you feel about being called a bit of a liar just to make somebody feel better? Yeah. Not, not, not great. I got to say. Right. Okay. But this is, somebody's forcing their narrative to smother new information. I just think that's a fascinating process

Reilly Dow: 37:07

I do too. I do too. And it's also a strange one. Right? Because you would think that's not where our minds would go to that kind of explanation. That's actually a little bit damaging.

Russ Hamilton: 37:15

Yeah, exactly.

Reilly Dow: 37:17

And yet, they do, they do go there. It's like we have this whole architecture set up this whole mental architecture of why we are not deserving or why we need to be better. And the content should be better. Content needs to be way better.

Russ Hamilton: 37:29

Everything I am needs to be way better.

Reilly Dow: 37:32

Who I am. It's like all of it. And so that's odd, you know, it's interesting. Yeah. It's interesting.

Russ Hamilton: 37:41

I have one more question for you and then I'm going to ask you if you have any questions for me. Okay. Okay. Here's the question. Are you going to listen to this interview? I don't know.

Reilly Dow: 37:50

Yes. I think I will.

Russ Hamilton: 37:54

I love it.

Reilly Dow: 37:55

I think I will and I have had, I've had some recent experiences of watching myself in recorded videos that have been a tough, tough to endure, but I think it's, I think it's a good form of feedback to yourself about how am I showing up. Exactly. So I'm curious about that aspect of it and I'm, I'm willing to endure the slight pain of it to go through that exploration. How's that?

Russ Hamilton: 38:23

It makes me happy. And endure the pain. That's our new call to action. Endure it.

Reilly Dow: 38:29

Yeah. It sounds like a CrossFit gym.

Russ Hamilton: 38:31

Exactly. We're doing burpees. Okay. Excellent. Do you have any questions for me?

Reilly Dow: 38:39

I'm curious how this, uh, how this podcasting is going for you. Um, what are you learning?

Russ Hamilton: 38:45

Well, it's an overwhelming experience for me to talk to people about their experience with this work. People who are close friends of mine, people who are a little more distant people who are just professional relationships, casual relationships, but people are so generous talking about their experience and they're so kind to me and loving. And so it's been wonderful and I want to build on it. I want to take all of this great energy, all this great conversation. And I want to build on it. There's a call to action here to share. Don't just talk to me about it. Share this podcast or recreate it in your own conversations, help co-create a world about standing communicators, where presenters and audience feels seen, heard, and necessary. How beautiful. Yeah. That's where I am with this. And it's kind of all I want to do now, which is not great. But I just love this so much. Does that answer your question?

Reilly Dow: 39:41

I'm so glad to hear that. It's making me think of this notion of when you reach out to people or when you're receiving that supportive kind of energy, right? Like people are so open and willing and want to tell you their stories. And to me, that's just like this really interesting, wonderful thing. Like if you ask for it, people are so ready to tell.

Russ Hamilton: 40:00

Yeah. It's very generous. Thank you so much for talking to me. Thank you. This has been fantastic. Reilly Dow in Mexico City has been our guest high-five. Reilly. Nice. Thank you very much. Okay. We'll talk to you again soon. Okay. Talk soon. Bye bye. So if you're listening to this and maybe somebody recommended you tune into this podcast, first of all, thank you for doing so. If you want to get more information and find out more about what we're talking about specifically, you can go to podcast.connectionlaboratory.com. And that has the menu that we discuss with the Six Box model and some of the questions and distinctions. Also, you can just visit the website connectionlaboratory.com. It breaks down everything that we offer. It talks about client experience. It talks about all the programs, all the information is there. If you want to find out more Connectionlaboratory.com, that's the place to go. We are continuing our conversations now with the amazing Tammy Foreman. Hello Tammy.

Tami Forman: 40:56

Hello?

Russ Hamilton: 40:58

Are you the CEO of Path Forward? Is that correct?

Tami Forman: 41:02

I am the Executive Director, but in nonprofit language that is CEO. I'm the Chief Executive. Yes. Tell us what path forward is. Path Forward is a nonprofit organization and we're on a mission to help people who've taken time off for caregiving, to restart their careers. So usually people think of stay at home moms, right? People who took some time to take care of their children, but it could be other family members and are now looking to restart their careers. So, we mainly work with employers, we're workforce development organization.

Russ Hamilton: 41:31

Amazing. If somebody wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way

Tami Forman: 41:34

To do it. Our website is pathforward.org. There's places to put in your information or email us or tweet us, LinkedIn us, Facebook us, all the things, all the things, all the things. How did you and I meet? We met because you were doing these crazy experimental leadership development, cohort model style stuff at a company called Return Path. And I was, um, I think I was in one of the first cohorts, which means I was a Guinea pig. Yes.

Russ Hamilton: 42:10

In a weird program, a Guinea pig.

Tami Forman: 42:15

So you practiced on me, which I was completely game with. So that was, that worked out. Yup.

Russ Hamilton: 42:23

Yeah. That works. So that's like 2012. Yeah. Get my brain around that.

Tami Forman: 42:32

Yeah. I remember marshmallows and there, we were building things with marshmallows. There was some paper airplanes. There's a blindfold at one point. I mean, it was pretty crazy stuff as I recall.

Russ Hamilton: 42:46

Totally, totally. And why, What was it in service of this circus? What was it in service of? What do you think?

Tami Forman: 42:54

I felt like it was in service of really helping us all to get in touch with ourselves as leaders. Like it wasn't, it just, it got you. We spend so much time in corporate America and even a company like Return Path, which was so good in so many ways, but still fell into some of the quagmires of let's all sit in a room and talk for seven hours about the thing we needed to do next. And, and the, the Leadership Journey stuff we did with you and the rest of the team was it just got us out of that. Right. It got us out of just sitting around a table, talking about nothing and forced us to do things and play. We don't play enough.

Russ Hamilton: 43:48

That's a generous memory because, because in the moment, it was stressful.

Tami Forman: 43:58

Oh, sure. Right. I'll bet

Russ Hamilton: 44:00

A competitive game completely contrived and made up of building like paper airplanes and landing pods, but it was competitive. And so even something that was introduced and people would roll their eyes and go, dude, are you serious? This is your we're going to make paper. And then seven minutes later, there's heated arguments in the boardroom about who gets the straw and who gets the bag of sugar and who gets the plado and those marshmallows are mine. That was so

Tami Forman: 44:32

That's what made it so great because here's the thing. And I don't, I will say, I don't know if we were ever able to carry it back to the real work. Right. And that may have been a failing of ours, but it's, so it was the fact that it was marshmallows and paper planes is what made us able to argue, because it was so absurd. It was so silly. It was so stupid, but you could actually like argue and, and there's something about the way so much corporate life is now that we don't, we don't argue, right. We don't have those disagreements. Um, or if you do, it's the sniping in the back, you know, it's just, it doesn't, it doesn't happen out in the open, in that way. And there was a way in which, because it was a game and because it was played, cause it was silly when you go to have an argument and we could, and we could play different roles in different ways. And it just, there was a way in which it was looser. Um, and we were able to do that. And I think if there was a way in which we all collectively, what we could have done is take it then. Okay. So then how does this apply? When we come in this room to do our quarterly goals, what have we, what can we learn from this? And how could we apply it to that process? Because that's where that's not happening.

Russ Hamilton: 45:49

Right. Right.

Tami Forman: 45:51

So that's what made it feel just kind of fun and interesting and invigorating.

Russ Hamilton: 45:57

Well, and for me it was the beginning of the six box. How do I show up under stress? Right. Right. Well, what if it's contrived stupid stress? What if it's paper, airplanes and marshmallows? Yeah. I still, I still made choices that I don't think were great. I showed up in ways that I don't think were collaborative or productive. Um, and maybe I was enormously successful. And is that okay? So it introduced these questions. How do I show up under stress? How do I want to, and what do I want to get better at? Yes. Right. That's the question that helps me transfer the experience of marshmallows and paper airplanes to the real world. Right. So that was the beginning of that process. Right. What do you remember about your Connection Lab session? Do you remember it? Cause the answer is totally allowed to be on Russ. I don't know I was medicated,

Tami Forman: 46:50

You know, all, I, I don't know. I'm going to say, I don't know what I will and I'm mean that because like, I don't, I didn't necessarily discern the differences between the different stuff. It was all just like we were hanging out with you and we were hanging out with Will and the different people like, so people come and go and, but I do remember what I remember from collectively all those different sessions, I do remember thinking about how I presented and how, how I think about, and this has carried through to this day, like how I think about what I, how I can be in service to the audience, like how I can help them. Like I came into the work that I'm doing now. So we do work with the employers, but we also do a lot of work with primarily women who are coming back into the workforce after having been out of the workforce. And one of the sessions I started doing with them was about work life balance. And it was the one part of the work that I was the most confident that I would be the best at which, which as a side note, the, the thing you think you're the best at, you might not be like that, that should probably trip off an alarm in your head. Like maybe I shouldn't think about this longer, but I thought that, you know, I had, at that point then a working mom for seven or eight years. I'm like, I got this, like I got this and I can teach anybody how to do this. And what I learned from my audience was, I didn't know anything about the experience they were having. Right. Which was having been home full time and now being back in the workforce and not having those systems and not having those relationships, and being in this place of having to make that transition. I really had to go back and think about how I could adapt what I had learned and what I did feel like I knew and was confident in, but learn from them, what their experience was and how to then play that back to them in a way that was helpful.

Russ Hamilton: 49:09

Invite your audience to inform the content and the process,

Tami Forman: 49:13

Find your audience. I know. And you just drill that into my head and yet, I still like ran forward with my knowing and my,'I know the way, come follow me ladies. We'll be good.'

Russ Hamilton: 49:30

That interesting. It's not right. It's not wrong. It's not good. It's not bad. It just is.

Tami Forman: 49:39

Isn't that interesting?

Russ Hamilton: 49:42

Yeah. Invite the audience to inform the process and the content. I'm sure I did because I'm so sure that they feel the same way I do. I'm so sure that their experience is just like mine- I am certain of it. I'm certain of it. So I'm going to cut corners and I'm going to just cut to the chase and give them what I want.

Tami Forman: 50:03

Even worse than that. I know best- I have done this. I am clearly very good at this.

Russ Hamilton: 50:13

I don't know if you've met me, but I...

Tami Forman: 50:17

Awesome. Yes. I did think about you at the breakfast table this morning. Because my 12 year old daughter said to my 10 year old son, I can tell the future. And she said to him, you're about to breathe. Thank you for breathing.

Russ Hamilton: 50:36

I'm freaking out.

Tami Forman: 50:38

You're about to breathe. I can tell the future. You're about to breathe. Yes, you probably are about to breathe.

Russ Hamilton: 50:47

I have. She told my future too.

Tami Forman: 50:52

She did. Thank you for breathing.

Russ Hamilton: 50:54

Thank you for breathing. If I'm known for two things, it's breathing and interesting.

Tami Forman: 50:59

Yes, that is true.

Russ Hamilton: 51:01

That is amazing. So, so sorry. I'm now at your breakfast table. So what changed when you went in knowing, and then you kind of ran into discovering how to meet them, where they are at full speed? What happened?

Tami Forman: 51:20

Well, they told me that I didn't know anything. I mean, no, they not in that way, but you know, the questions they asked and they started...so I will say, and it's a very funny thing about the country we live in. I learned the most out in California because those Californians, they will just share everything, right? Like New York's a very different vibe and I'm glad I got to practice out there because they are just totally willing to go where they want you to go. And they would just start, they just basically took over. They would just start giving each other advice. Cause like clearly the woman at the front of the room doesn't know what the hell she's talking about because you know her New York life with her nanny, blah, blah, blah. No, we're going to get down and get real here ladies. And I'm going to tell you, and they just started doing it and they just started doing it. And because I had learned from you, I was able to open the space for that and hold the space for them to do that. And it was like, Oh, I need to just shut up and listen. And then I'm going to be able to take this to all the other places they need to take it. Um, and we did, and I did, but, um, but yeah, I just sort of opened it up and, and they told me, they told me what they needed. So if you listen to your audience, they will tell you what they need.

Russ Hamilton: 52:40

Well, if you ask and then listen,

Tami Forman: 52:42

If you ask and then listen, if you ask then listen. And I think, and it's funny. I think I have started, I'll go ahead. And, and I, I think it's always a process, but I think, I think I have found a good way to discern when I need to listen to them and when they need to listen to me. Right. Cause there are times when, you know, particularly they'll, you know, it's usually more individual one-to-one someone will run up to me and they want to tell me all the ways they've been wronged and they're expecting me to play back to them all the ways they've been wrong. Right. So that that's a game. I don't play with them. Right. That's not, that's not what I'm here for. Right. And that's not what you need me to be here for. Right. Um, so I think I'm getting better at learning when to let them tell me what they need and when for me to tell them what they need.

Russ Hamilton: 53:37

That makes perfect sense for me.

Tami Forman: 53:38

It's tricky. Rich's tricky but I think is, is necessary because if you only let the audience inform, then, then what are you there for? Right. Then what, what's the point? Right? The point is balance. Right, exactly. Right. Exactly. I have seen something you haven't seen. Like I it's, what I've come to find for me is recognizing when they have a better point of view or experience, not better, better, isn't the way to put it. It's not a superlative, but when they, when their perspective or experience is something that's more true in that moment. And then know, but also knowing when I've seen something they haven't seen yet. Right. I actually know what the other side of the mountain looks like, and I can get you there. So you have to just trust me. But I am totally willing to hear what's on your side of the mountain, you know, the side of the mountain we're both on. Right. And what your side looks like

Russ Hamilton: 54:32

Are your questions getting better for them? Are you helping them respond or are you collecting good questions?

Tami Forman: 54:39

Yeah, I think so. I think so. I, you know, I have people who will come up to me or call me with their litany of like that. Usually it's something like real small interpersonal, you know, like the things that happen at work. And I, one of the good questions I've come to start to ask people is how, how is this serving you? How is being involved in this particular situation, serving you? And, and it's really interesting how people respond to that. Right? Cause they'll immediately kind of love it. Sometimes it takes a couple tries before cause right. They're immediately launching into, well, this person did this and then that person did that. And then this person did the other thing and you're like, okay, so what, how is this helping you? Right. How is this serving you? And that's true for clients too. Oh God. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Russ Hamilton: 55:23

How is this process serving you? Right? Your hiring process, your diligence, your recruiting. The answer is not, not great. Now that you've put some light on it. Isn't that interesting? Is that something you want to get better at?

Tami Forman: 55:38

Isn't that interesting, right? Yeah.

Russ Hamilton: 55:40

I'm going to ask you one more question and then I'm going to ask if you have any questions for me. Okay. Here's my question. Are you going to listen to this podcast and your interview with yourself?

Tami Forman: 55:51

Yes, I, I, okay. Here's something you probably already figured out about me. I love the sound of my voice. I do. I really do. I, it took me a long time, but I really do love the sound of my own voice. Absolutely. I will listen to it. I really will.

Russ Hamilton: 56:11

That makes me so happy. It really does. You can imagine some people hesitate, but pretty much everybody gets to. Yes.

Tami Forman: 56:19

Hmm. I'm sorry to be like, Oh yeah!

Russ Hamilton: 56:24

I would have won that. Bet. If somebody had said, what do you bet? She's going to say. I'm like, yeah, she's totally gonna, are you kidding? Do you have any questions for me?

Tami Forman: 56:37

What is your favorite thing about working with executives?

Russ Hamilton: 56:41

That my favorite thing working with executives is that somewhere in them is still the beginner and the rookie. And that when you tap that vibe within somebody who's extremely smart and dedicated and practiced and experienced, and you can tap the vibe of the Explorer in them, the young person, hungry with an appetite and not knowing that a version of them emerges. That just they love. And we love. And they're reminded that that person exists within them. And that in fact, they may be relying too much on their experience and their knowledge. That the joy of work and relationship and community is in the Explorer. I love that. That's what I'll say about that.

Tami Forman: 57:35

What's your least favorite thing about working with executives?

Russ Hamilton: 57:39

Um, well I'll say here's what I'll say

Tami Forman: 57:42

Or most challenging.

Russ Hamilton: 57:45

Here's the thing. Not everybody. Is your audience.

Tami Forman: 57:50

Oh yes. Oh yes. I had so many yell at me on the internet sometimes. And I had a guy write into us to ask like why we weren't helping him.

Russ Hamilton: 58:05

Yeah. Yeah. Why weren't we helping people who weren't caregivers. Right.

Tami Forman: 58:10

There are other problems to be solved. Yeah. Why, why aren't you solving my problem?

Russ Hamilton: 58:15

Yeah. Why aren't you solving my pro me. Yeah.

Tami Forman: 58:19

Um, I don't know. I'm not here to solve your problems, right? You go found a non-profit. Yes, no, not everybody is my audience. No, that's okay.

Russ Hamilton: 58:34

It's okay that not everybody is your audience. People might not be ready for this conversation. They might not be interested. They're allowed to be autonomous and make that decision. You may have a different opinion and you're allowed to have that, but guess what? It's okay. Not everybody is your audience. Yeah. So what I often get is because I work with senior leaders, but sometimes not always starting with CEOs, that the CEO will start hearing a lot of buzz about me and Connection Lab and the work. And we'll start saying, Hey, I want some of that. But their motive is curiosity not to get better at anything.

Tami Forman: 59:17

No, they were great at everything. Right? Have you met them?

Russ Hamilton: 59:22

Them? They are. They're so great and everything. So they come into the room and they have no desire to get better at anything. What they want is to find out why everybody's talking about connection lab and, and this word and this guy, like what is so special and what drives that? The, the, the vibe, what drives the narrative inside an organization is that people have tremendous appetite to get better. And that they, that I meet them with that. And I have an opportunity and a methodology that helps them at something they want to get better at. And that's where it all just multiplies in impact. And we just get this extraordinary opportunity for all of us to get better. And then the CEO comes in and starts kicking tires and smelling the upholstery. And it's like, I don't see what's so great about this. It's like, well, you're not trying to get better at anything and not for nothing. That's why your organization is struggling, dude. Right? Right. Because the organization isn't trying to get better at anything. You're just taking it all for granted. And by the way, somebody creeping up behind you is going to eat your lunch. Right. So that's the most challenging situation is because now I say, no, now I say no to these, these CEOs and senior leaders who say, Oh, I hear lots of great things. I'd like to do a program. And I go, no, tell you what, no, what do you want to get? Well, what do you want to get better at? And I've talked to CEOs who take a week, two weeks to answer that question. Cause what they start with is everything. I want to get better at everything. And I go, yeah, that's a cop out.

Tami Forman: 1:00:45

Everything is nothing.

Russ Hamilton: 1:00:46

Everything is nothing. I need specifics about what you want to get better at. And it's okay if you try three or four times and get it wrong, it's totally fine. What we need is to spend time in that question. And then when you answer passionately about what you want to get better at, now we can dive in and start working. Now there's a methodology that, and, and you know, when people who lead with what they clearly want to get better at, and the thing is what's makes them endearing is they don't want to get better at it. Their business needs them to get better at it.

Tami Forman: 1:01:17

Oh yeah.

Russ Hamilton: 1:01:19

So if they could avoid it, if they could just cut a check and just avoid this, they would. But they cannot because their businesses are emorrhaging. Yeah.

Tami Forman: 1:01:29

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes the world needs us to be better at things we don't necessarily want to be better at.

Russ Hamilton: 1:01:36

So I often have this conversation with coaches and facilitators who say no play to your strength.

Tami Forman: 1:01:41

Oh shush, I mean sure. But yeah,

Russ Hamilton: 1:01:45

Of course when it calls for it, but by the way, we should always be expanding and we need to show our organization what it looks like to get better at anything. Yes. Show them don't point your finger and tell them, show them and be transparent about sucking at this new competency. You're trying to get better at.

Tami Forman: 1:02:03

And better just means better or better than where you were like, you're not going to be great at everything. Like the play to your strengths thing is, is true. You know, like, yes, you should spend a lot of time doing things you're really good at and passionate about are good at. But like, there are certain things like when you're a boss, you just, I learned so much from being a mother, right? Like there's things that like my children need me to do things that I may not want to do because they're children and they need them and they don't have to be the best at them, but I need to be good enough. Yup. Executives are bad at good enough. Right. We like to be either awesome or then don't bother me. Right. But it's like, it doesn't shush. Sometimes you have to be good enough at certain things. I need you to be good enough at some things. Yeah. Tremendous. Oh, I'm great. At good enough. I was super comfortable with good enough.

Russ Hamilton: 1:03:11

That's how I describe you Tami Forman- she's great at being good enough. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for talking with me and for helping me get better and for just being so great. Thank you, Russell Hamilton. It was awesome. So that's our episode today. Thank you so much for joining us and thank you to my guests. Valerie Nishi, Reilly Dow, and Tami Forman, all tremendous women and tremendous executives and people. And, I want to thank them so much for participating today. It feels like the theme today one of the themes in our conversations today was seeking answers in relationship, being curious about people investigating and inviting. I think the temptation is to try and relive rehash, you know, continually assess, diagnose live in my head. I think that's the temptation. Even if what is in my head is not particularly healthy. At least it's safer than being in relationship. And I want to challenge that and that's going to be our homework this week is seeking the answer in relationship with people, be curious, you don't have to say anything necessarily. What color are their eyes? What color are their eyebrows? What shapes do you see? What's interesting to them? What's useful to them? How can I meet this person where they are? It's so easy for me to identify what I think they need to get better at based on my narrative and my predisposition. But what if, what if I'm really curious and invite them to tell me about what's going on? I don't decide when they feel seen and heard, but it doesn't mean I can't practice inviting people and being curious. So that's our homework to the best of your ability, seek the answers you're looking for in relationship and not in isolation. And I know these are scary times for a lot of people and you can still be wise when it comes to your health and still meet people where they are. I want to thank you for joining us today. This is Lab Notes, the Connection Lab podcast. We'll see you again. Next time.

Announcer: 1:05:16

Thank you for listening to Lab Notes, the Connection Lab podcast. For more information about our workshops and executive development programs, you can email us at info@tconnectionlaboratory.com or go to our website at connectionlaboratory.com.