Host: 0:00

From Little Mountain Sound in Vancouver, British Columbia this is Lab Notes. And, now here's your host, Russ Hamilton. Hello and welcome. Thank you for joining us. We are so pleased you're here and tuning in. This has just been an extraordinary journey and the journey continues. I'm on the phone here with Eric Edelman. Hello Eric. Hey, how are ya? I'm really good man. How are you? I want to open with a story. It's actually a joke. My old writing partner and I used to say to each other, cause we used to have to remind each other of the punchline. It's been an interesting few weeks. And the question, how do I show up under stress kind of looms large and in a lot of cases, how do we as a community show up under stress? And the story goes-guy driving his car in the rain at night, dark, rainy, terrible conditions, lonely road and pop goes the tire. He's not going that fast. He pulls over, it's fine except for the flat tire, gets out of the car, takes a look. Oh, what a time. What a place. Okay, pop the trunk. I'm going to take care of this already soaked. Looks in the trunk, the spare tires there, but no jack and he says"Oh no," he cleaned out the trunk and he took the jack out of the car and he never put it back in-"I'm such an idiot" he's saying to himself,"just how stupid. Oh my God, I can't believe it". So he deals with that and he looks around and the only place he sees that might be useful is an old farmhouse up on the Hill and it's not too far away. And he figures, oh, he's going to go and walk across. Can't get any cell signals. So he's going to walk up to the house and he just feels like,"how stupid do you have to be the clean out the trunk and not put the jack back in the trunk". So he's beating himself up and he's walking up a hill and he's going towards the little house and it's got a little light on. So he thinks somebody might be home, but he's so ashamed and he's so embarrassed. And then he started thinking, you know, this is not the worst mistake somebody could make. I mean, if you clean out the trunk and you forget to put the jack back in, that's actually a pretty reasonable mistake. He's not a terrible person. And he's walking and he's getting closer to the house and he's like, you know, if somebody were to judge me because I forgot to put the jack in the car, you know, I would, I would have a problem with that. I would have a problem with somebody judging me for making a mistake. Yes. But something that's easy to make a mistake, that's kind of easy to make. So I would, I would, I would resist anybody or push back on anybody who in fact, and he gets closer to the house and he can see inside and there's an old woman inside the house. He's like, I'd be really choked if somebody got mad at me, you know, or, or, or judged me for forgetting to put the jack back in the car. And he walks up onto the porch and he knocks on the door. And, ever so slowly. The old woman comes down to the door and he looks her square in the eye and he goes,"you know what? Keep your stupid jack", and that's the joke. My friend and I used to tell each other. We would look at each other and go,"you know what? Just keep your stupid jack." How do I show up under stress? How do I generate my own stress through the stories that I tell myself through the narratives that I wash through? How many ways am I generating my own stress and then punishing the world for the stress I've created for myself that's been alive for me the last few days. So if it comes up again, you're allowed to say, you know what? Keep your stupid freaking jack. That's right. You're very patient, Eric, for sitting there and listening to this and wondering what you're doing here, but thank you, Eric Edelman. You're a senior leader at Common. Is that correct?

Eric Edelman: 3:43

That's right.

Host: 3:44

Can you tell us what Common is and what you do?

Eric Edelman: 3:46

Yeah. Common is a property management company that uses technology and data to, we like to say revolutionize, how multifamily rental properties are operated today.

Host: 4:00

Okay. So is there an emphasis on business or is it for anybody looking for housing?

Eric Edelman: 4:05

Yeah, so you know, we focus on large apartment building throughout the United States. One of the, one of the interesting things we do is we operate co-living, which is a new type of apartment that you can rent or you rent out your own bedroom within an apartment and you share that apartment with other folks. The apartment comes fully furnished, your wifi, your utilities, your paper towels, your soap are all included. And so it's a great way to really reduce the friction of living with roommates while enjoying all of the benefits which are community, lower rent and convenience. And, so that's one of the products that we're most known for.

Host: 4:46

And what's your title? What do you do?

Eric Edelman: 4:48

My title is VP of platform, although sometimes I like to refer to myself as the VP of Mischief. Uh, I focus on cross-functional initiatives throughout the company. Really pulling together all the stakeholders and launching new products, um, that involve getting everybody to pitch in.

Host: 5:09

Nice. And about six months ago, that's when we met. What were the circumstances of you and I meeting?

Eric Edelman: 5:15

So right around the time that I was stepping into this role, you know, one of the things I noticed, um, previously I was the Chief of Staff to the CEO. And so I had the opportunity to sit, you know, on the executive meetings and see how the other executives presented their points and also compare that to how my points were received and noticed a gap in terms of communication efficacy between the other folks around the table and myself and felt like there was an opportunity to level up, especially as I was stepping into this new role and be a better and a better communicator.

Host: 5:59

Nice. And, so through a bunch of mutual friends and contacts and professional relationships, you and I started an executive development program, a speaker development program. And what's your first memory of that? Remember when we first met, what do you remember about our early work?

Eric Edelman: 6:15

I mean, first of all, the catchphrases, you have so many great catchphrases, Russ. And what struck me about them was that as you thought about each catchphrase and you peeled back the onion, there was always more to it and more to it. And, so early on I got the sense that someone, someone being you had had a lot of experience, helping people come to realizations, both slowly and then all at once.

Host: 6:47

That's beautifully articulated. Oh my goodness. So what was your experience of that?

Eric Edelman: 6:51

You know, it's the experience of being dragged, kicking and screaming somewhere. You, feel like you're supposed to go, but yet your body and your conditioning has wired you for years and maybe since birth to not want to go there. And so what is the process of, you know, realizing, Hey, I have these patterns of behavior or these patterns of speech or these patterns of thinking about things that lead me to get the same results every time and maybe I'm not so happy with those results or I just like some variety and would like to see some different results every now and then.

Host: 7:29

Tremendous. So I sent you the Six Box Model and the little menu page of the Lab Notes thing and our methodology on a one sheet. What stands out for you on the one sheet, if anything, what stands out for you on that sheet now?

Eric Edelman: 7:43

So, I'm going to ignore the question and share what stands out to me most from the experience, which I think somewhat relates to your question. In working together, you know, one of the biggest realizations that I had is that my experience of a presentation in some ways has very little to do with the audience's experience. And so I could be, you know, standing on stage and feeling like I'm going to wet my pants any moment and go completely blank and my leg is, you know, ever so subtly shaking and it can just feel terrible. And when I'm done, um, you know, I can feel like, wow, you know, that was really grueling and that must've been palm sweating shirts, soaking experience for everyone else. And everyone else can have had a totally different experience of that presentation and they very well could have thought it was great and uh, you know, it could have been very easy for them to take in and maybe even enjoyable. No matter how many times someone might tell you that that's the case, uh, it really takes practice and shattering expectations multiple times that truly your experience is only slightly connected to the audience's experience and that the audience is entitled to their own experience, which is different than yours.

Host: 9:13

Yeah. So again, just a tremendous encapsulation of a really foundational principle of the work, which is I can't have your experience of me.

Eric Edelman: 9:23

Right. Right. And also, I can't control your experience of me. This idea on the flip side, which is, you know, I think I'm hammering it. Everything is great. I'm hitting all my talking points and I haven't looked you in the eye once. You know, I may think that I'm giving you a great experience and you know, you can lean back and enjoy, but you might feel that you're not being seen and heard and I'm just acting out some skit whether you're in the room or not.

Host: 9:54

Yeah. Oh boy. So I remember you getting a bunch of like really positive feedback after a presentation that I'm not sure you felt really deserved it as we were practicing in the room and we practice this a lot with a bunch of different content and people kept saying really nice things about you and what you were saying and what you had written or what you hadn't written and how they remembered, you know, that scene in the movie and they were really kind of gushing about you and you weren't quite sure how to reconcile that. I'm just remembering then specifically, are you still dealing with that? I mean, what's that practice like today? What's that experience like today?

Eric Edelman: 10:32

Yeah. Um, you know, I think what you're talking about is one of those things in the Six Boxes, which is your relationship to yourself. And so, you know, the audience can have this great relationship with you and enjoy the experience. And if your relationship with yourself is not in a good place, you know, you could be kicking the crap out of yourself, saying you know, you work with, you know, insignificant, incompetent person and meanwhile the audience can be having a great time. And if you're truly a self sabotager or the next step is you try to end your audience's a great time and say, you know, you weren't paying attention, you're a bad audience. Um, didn't you recognize all these things I did terribly. Um, you know, I'm going to find someone that agrees with me that I stink. I can only speak for myself, but, having someone else in the room to help you unpack that and notice that's taking place and throw out a wild suggestion-like, you know, maybe the audience knows what it's talking about can be a quite powerful experience. Yeah.

Host: 11:48

Yeah. Fantastic. So that kind of, that's, that's a lovely encapsulation of our first session together. And of course it informed our other sessions together. What do you remember about the second session call to action and demand

Eric Edelman: 12:00

As much as we want to communicate, lots of nuance and lots of details what was really helpful about the call to action session was, what's the point? What are we really trying to do here? Can I convey that, you know, really single verb point to folks and as much as I might want to focus on, you know, list of instructions that you could go grocery shopping with. The more important thing is, am I effectively communicating the one action verb I want you to feel in your bones and go out and do all of your work with. And for me, you know, the grocery shopping list was so important and I wanted to make sure everything was on there and I didn't forget the eggs that I was never taking time to think about. What's the verb, you know, what's the one umbrella that folks can take with them so that if they forget something on the list and, or I forget something on the list, and it's not written down because they know the verb, they'll figure it out on their own.

Host: 13:12

People doing presentations, answering questions that were never asked. Right. Here's the, here's all the questions that I ask myself. And clearly you're here, so you must ask them too. Yeah, no, I don't really, I don't ask them. I'm not, you know, I just want as a, as a member of your audience, what do you want me to do? So what's the difference between an active verb and a passive verb?

Eric Edelman: 13:34

Gosh, yeah, I'm still struggling with this, but me too. And I think that's where it's helpful. Uh, you know, you start to grasp the concept and you throw out some ideas, you know, whether it's reading Hamlet or Goodwill Hunting and you think, Oh, I got it and it's still, you know, it takes practice to get this right. But the action verb is what are you going to do? And so there's so many passive verbs of, you know, align or you know, even feel, but usually it needs to be something, you know, you jump out of your chair and something's going to happen as a result of it. I'm going to grow, I'm going to build, um, you know, all down the list of things that people do in business to make things happen. And rarely does anything happen when people align or think about.

Host: 14:27

I can't agree more. So the calls to action on both monologues are the same. Do you remember? Yes. To be or not to be that is the question. What's the call to action?

Eric Edelman: 14:38

Choose.

Host: 14:39

Choose. That's what Hamlet's whole monologue is about. And he's yelling at himself. He's just inviting the audience to join him, which is kind of the call to action for this process. This is more than just a call to action to go shopping, right? Here's your list of all the things that are on the list, but this is the call to action that moves me, that I'm extending to invite you to participate in and in fact make a demand. Can I make it an effective demand on an audience that doesn't feel seen and heard? Nope. That's why we do Relationship first. That's why relationship with the audience and this idea that I don't decide for them when they feel seen and heard. And in fact, the only thing I can control is the quality of my invitation and the quality of my offer is revolutionary.

Eric Edelman: 15:25

Yeah, I mean, you certainly remember, uh, you know, we would run through the Goodwill Hunting monologue and sometimes I would nail, um, you know, the words and really feel like I got through it cleanly and then the audience would say, yeah, I didn't feel seen and heard. And on the flip side, you know, sometimes I would really engage the audience and as a result, you know, I would stumble over a word or lose my place and I was shocked because the audience much preferred those times when every sentence wasn't crisp and just like Matt Damon would do it. But I made eye contact with them and you know, really tried to send some emotional energy their way.

Host: 16:10

Yeah. And they felt seen and they felt heard and they felt invited and they felt invited to contribute to what you were doing. They felt like a co-creator and a collaborator, they felt necessary. And all of a sudden it's a whole different thing and you're up there thinking, I don't think I did a very good job. That's right. So what comes up for me around that is Permission to Fail. Is that a part of this, do you think?

Eric Edelman: 16:33

Yeah. And, as someone that doesn't, you know, doesn't like failure I think one thing that's really helpful is, you know, the box of what failure and what winning is really shifted for me in that, you know, permission to fail on the words and not get them right, but also permission to succeed on a great presentation and understanding that, you know, certain things which you might care a lot about, which in my case was the content actually aren't necessary to the goal, which is to give a great presentation or to engage the audience. And so understanding that failing in one place actually doesn't preclude you from succeeding in your overall directive or goal.

Host: 17:17

Yeah, that's a mind blower. I try to hold my brains in on that one because it's so true that I'm in my mind going, I know I can read this better. I know I can be tighter and louder and you know, a better presenter around this. And yet the audience likes the ones where I'm connected with them and I'm honest and vulnerable and generous.

Eric Edelman: 17:38

And isn't that interesting?

Host: 17:39

Isn't that interesting? So how does it affect your communication now? What are you noticing about the workplace, the professional community you work in? What do you notice specifically? What are you noticing about the quality of relationships around you and the qualities of calls to action around you?

Eric Edelman: 18:00

My experience of it is a bit of a checklist. You know, the first thing I always try to do is establish a relationship, eye contact with my audience or the person I'm having a conversation with. And, then,one of the most helpful things that I've realized is delivering the content is never going to feel great. You know, I could, it could always be better and, I'll never escape the feeling that, you know, that wasn't perfect and you know, I should do it again. And so letting go of that and saying, you know, you're entitled to that feeling that, you know, the content isn't perfect, but it actually doesn't matter. What matters is, is this person who I'm engaging with or this audience that I'm engaging with, feeling seen and heard and is there a clear directive or call to action that after they feel seen and heard, they can take with them from the conversation or the presentation and go do something with it. And that's, that's really helpful because you s top getting hung up on the content and u h, you know, you're able to kind of let things go and move on to the next, while getting a great result, which is your audience feels seen and heard. They know what you want from them and hopefully they're inspired to go do it. If you've done your job right. So, u h, those checkpoints are really helpful for me.

Host: 19:36

Amazing. I'm going to ask one more question and then I'm going to ask if you have any questions for me. Great. Are you going to listen to this interview?

Eric Edelman: 19:43

Oh wow. What do you recommend, Russ?

Host: 19:47

you want to call your coach on that?

Eric Edelman: 19:52

People in this side of the pod.

Host: 19:57

Well, of course people have answered all over the spectrum, but usually this hesitation is pretty common. I don't think you're going to be able to resist. Interesting. I think you're going to need to know c ause other people are g oing t o listen to it. I mean granted not a lot, but a few and I expect you're going to be curious, which is just a magnificent thing. And then you're going to tune in and for as long as you can, you're going to listen. That's what I think..

Eric Edelman: 20:25

Interesting I think that, I don't know if there will be comments, but anybody who does end up listening to it I will want to know what they think and depending on what they think, then I'll go back and listen. Um, but you know, connecting to what we've talked about throughout, uh, you know, having an enjoyable conversation with you and, uh, you know, sharing is sort of enough and the idea that, you know, you've got to go back and see everything you could have said differently. Learning to let old dogs lie has been a big takeaway.

Host: 21:03

Well old dog. Uh, I have thoroughly enjoyed this. I, uh, I hope you listen to it. I'm going to listen to it, which means I have to listen to me, but it's worth it because I get to hear you and what you have to say. And I think you've been extremely eloquent and I think your work in your development program has been fantastic. Extraordinary. And I'm really proud of you and I'm really, excited about the impact you're going to have in your career and your professional life and in your community. And I look forward to working with you long time in the future.

Eric Edelman: 21:36

Yeah, I really appreciate that. Thank you Russ. If it isn't clear, um, from this, you know, you've helped quite a bit and um, you know, I don't want to overstate, but it's been pretty transformative and these are the kinds of things that I would not have come to on my own, which actually leads me to my question for you, which is, you know, knowing what I know about myself, I don't think I ever would have come to these realizations in a vacuum. So I'm curious, how did you come to these realizations and this way of coaching given that it's so effective?

Host: 22:13

A tremendous question and while I could wax for a long time about my professional history and my weird, bizarre road, uh, I will say that it began in broadcast in radio, which I think you and I talked about. I'm actually in Vancouver right now at Little Mountain Sound studios an iconic place in Vancouver where a bunch of amazing bands recorded. I did a ton of radio work for a variety of radio stations here. I was a jock for all kinds of formats. Radio was the family business. So I grew up in a house where communication and broadcast were always the topic of conversation. So that was a foundational place for me to begin with. Then I got into theater and I started learning more about scripts and content and performance and relationship and audience and all so many of the principles that we were working with. And then I started working as a coach and a facilitator and I started facilitating workshops. I was also a marketing director for a while and an event producer internationally. So all of these different things funneled into what is effective communication. Why do some people feel seen and heard and some people not. Why? Why are some people so intimidated? So I started asking myself these questions. I also will say that a big, a pivotal moment for me was trade shows. I was a trade show host for a lot of technology companies and they would hire me to condense their value proposition, to really condense and write a seven minute piece of theater that they could put on a at a trade show that really explained their point of difference in the marketplace and their extraordinary value. So I had to condense their value and I got really good at it. And then when I got into coaching and communication and facilitation and development, I started using those practices on all of these methodologies. Even Buddhism, you know, I started saying that they're not well marketed. Buddhism is not particularly well marketed. You know,"leave yourself" is what Buddhism says what? And I'm like, that is a terrible call to action. I don't see an exit beyond the obvious ones, so that is not useful. So I started condensing all these methodologies and in that process that's when Connection Lab was born. That's when the three primary questions, the three primary relationships and the idea that these opposites can be distinctions that they are scales that we can put ourselves on at any given moment. That's where this methodology came from and now it's building because I get to talk, I got to circle back and talk to people like you. We have over a thousand graduates now around the world and people are having very similar and of course unique experiences with this work, but everybody's getting better at empathy and communication and invitation and offer and calls to action and quality of relationship. And that's what I want my leadership legacy to be is helping co-create a world like that. Does that answer your question? Yeah. High five my friend I high five. Thank you so much for participating today. Go out there and crush it.

Eric Edelman: 25:23

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Program Info: 25:24

You're listening to Lab Notes, part of the Connection Lab Network. For more information about our workshops and executive development programs. Email us at info@connectionlaboratory.com or go to our website at connectionlaboratory.com

Host: 25:39

so we're going to continue our conversations now. Uh, you, Holly are in Indianapolis, is that correct? That is correct. Yeah. Holly Enneking is the Vice President of marketing at Lev. Is that true? Is it, have you been elevated from that?

Holly Enneking: 25:52

That is true. I am official. I'm official now after just a couple of months, which is very exciting. Yeah.

Host: 25:57

Amazing. Can you tell me what Lev does?

Holly Enneking: 25:59

Yes. So Lev is a marketing focus Salesforce consultancy that works primarily with marketers who are using marketing cloud. Uh, as a marketer myself, I know how much pressure there is on marketers, especially to use a platform like Salesforce really effectively and to get the most out of it that you can. So that's where Lev comes in to really help marketers who are using something like marketing cloud and really all of Salesforce platforms to help them get up and running and to get the most out of the platform.

Host: 26:27

Nice. When did you and I meet?

Holly Enneking: 26:30

We, Oh man, it's been a little while now. Over a year I would say. Cause we met for a Connections Lab before I went through Leadership Journey.

Host: 26:39

Is that true? You did a one-off session. It is true. You did a one-off session one Connection Lab.

Holly Enneking: 26:47

Correct.

Host: 26:48

And then you did the Leadership Journey, which included. Wow. Okay.

Holly Enneking: 26:53

And I think that was maybe just three or four months before there wasn't too long of a space between the two, but it was probably about a year ago from now.

Host: 27:01

What do you remember about your Connection Lab experience? The first workshop?

Holly Enneking: 27:04

Well, I would say my overriding memory of that was a lot of crying that I did. I was very emotional. I'm a, I'm a crier by nature, which is something I've learned to embrace over the course of the last year. I've sort of accepted it. It's just, it's how I show up under stress. And so, uh, that was my overriding memory of that experience was that there was, I just was very emotional and I really, uh, it was a real struggle for me to to stand up in front of the group and to, um, to talk about like my vision for leadership and to be in relationship and to go through all of those practices. And,, yeah. But it was great because then when I came into leadership journey, I was like, all right, I know I need a buckle up. I got to get ready because this is really gonna push me in a way that I don't know that I'm right.

Host: 27:57

You showed up in a helmet and goggles and you know, the protection. You were totally, you had your little ch buckler shield and let's do this.

Holly Enneking: 28:06

Absolutely.

Host: 28:07

Well, and that was contagious in the room, I think. I think, I think you, you were a leader in the room in the Leadership Journey and I expect you were in the workshop too, but we'll talk about that in a little while. Okay. Um, so now we're in the Leadership Journey. So now and the company we're in is called Return Path, which is, which got acquired, you know, a year ago. Um, and you're in the room with a bunch of fellow senior executives, uh, senior managers, people who've been appointed as high potentials in the organization, in a company that invests pretty heavily in talent development and you've been chosen to come and join and you kind of know what to expect, at least out of the first session or two. And then you walk into the room. Can you talk about that experience? Can you talk about meeting people, talking to people and diving in?

Holly Enneking: 28:58

Absolutely. I actually was incredibly nervous because of some of the people who were in the room. So I was in a role at Return Path in my position within marketing where a lot of people who were in the room were really stakeholders for me on a regular basis. Right. And people that were asking me to do work for them, that I was supporting them in their functions and supporting their teams and people that I really wanted to have faith in me. And my ability to do my job. And I was very nervous about, quite honestly occupying space with people who I thought were a step above me and potentially setting myself up to embarrass people, but embarrass myself in front of people that I wanted to respect me. So I came in with a lot of anxiety from that perspective of just like wanting to show up in my, as my best self and, and to not do anything that I would find embarrassing, which is a pretty low threshold I find myself in various on a regular basis. But, so that was really difficult. And knowing how much of a struggle my first taste of Connection Lab had been for me, knowing that, you know, over a nine month period, it's going to be that on steroids. I was particularly nervous, but I was very pleasantly surprised to find that I wasn't the only nervous person in the room. Other people were also nervous, which was comforting in its own way. Um, and very just like welcoming and accepting. And there was very instant comradery in our group. We really clicked as a group from the first, you know, hour together. And that really helped lift me up in the beginning of the leadership journey.

Host: 30:36

Do you think that's shared stress, shared trauma?

Holly Enneking: 30:40

Mm, I think it's definitely shared stress. I mean, there's something to be said for going through something really stressful together and what that can do for bringing people together. Not only lifting yourself up, but finding ways to lift up others and to have that shared experience. And I think that really bonded us for sure.

Host: 30:56

How long did it take for people's titles to quietly leave the room?

Holly Enneking: 31:02

Yeah, I would say, I would say in that first session, especially when we're going through the exercises of, you know, Linger Longer and, to being in relationship and really having to hold that connection with someone. In that moment, it's really not about who you are, your, you know, relationship to one another on an org chart. It's really about just like being in that room with that person and going through that experience with them. So I would say, you know, we're sort of thrust into having to forget about all of that very quickly.

Host: 31:31

Yeah. Did you become a better presenter do you think in those first couple of sessions, those first couple of days of the Leadership Journey?

Holly Enneking: 31:39

Um, I'm not sure that I became a better presenter. I think I became more comfortable with myself and like where I was as a presenter. I don't know that my like skill set as a presenter per se improved, but I think that idea of feeling like I could take up space and that I could stand in front of the group, which obviously is part of presenting. I think that definitely improved. Like there was a confidence that was built that I didn't have walking into the room.

Host: 32:09

Do you think you became a better audience member?

Holly Enneking: 32:11

Oh, absolutely. I think, I was eager to give anyone a smile and to like the head nodding and the, I am engaged with you. I'm here with you. Like I want to lift you up and to make you feel like you're doing great. Like I purposely put myself in seats in the room where I would fall in natural eyelines so that I could be the cheerleader that people could look through. Like I really

Host: 32:34

I remember you picking your seats strategically for that.

Holly Enneking: 32:36

I was very strategic and where it could be in order to, I knew how uncomfortable I was feeling and anything I could do to make others feel less uncomfortable was important to me.

Host: 32:46

If we fast forward to a little more modern times into, you know, what's happening now, are you a different audience member now?

Holly Enneking: 32:54

I think I absolutely am. I am really lucky in that I'm at Return Path and now at Lev I have a team of people that I'm leading and I really make it my responsibility not just to lead them from work and day to day task perspective, but also how I can be helping them to do more things, to grow their own skill sets, to try things that they're uncomfortable trying to feel comfortable failing at something. And I give myself that role of being everyone on my team's biggest cheerleader. I want to be, you know, in any situation where I can be putting them out in front and letting them lead and doing whatever I can to support them. That brings me a lot of joy as a leader. U m, and I think i t sets me up to help them think about the things that I'm thinking about. Like how am I showing up under stress? How can, u h, how do I want to be showing up? What can I be doing in order to make myself feel the confidence that I think I need for the situation and then help them go through that same exercise having been through it myself. And so I, I really l ove being t here, their biggest fans whenever I can.

Host: 34:05

Excellent. Are you coaching, do you think?

Holly Enneking: 34:08

Yes. So I, I talk about Leadership Journey on a very regular basis. I was actually very excited to share this podcast with them. Like you guys hear that thing that I talked to you about endlessly that I went, that was this big impactful experience. Like this is it, this is, you can listen to it here because I really want to be able to take the things that I learned and gained from it and be able to share it with others. I had a really impactful conversation with my mentor Daniel after Leadership Journey. And I was like, I wish there were just a million more Russ' in the world. Like what happens when Russ doesn't do this program anymore? And other people don't get to have the same experience? And he was like, well, Holly, that's your job now. Like that's what you're supposed to be doing. And it was this real like eye opening experience for me of like, Oh, that's right. Like I shouldn't just hold onto this for myself. This isn't just about making me better. It's how do I then take what I've learned and things that I've tried to do, recognize what I've been through and other people and help them with this knowledge that I have. And so that was a really big eye opening conversation for me. And I really ran with that after April and was just like, alright, how do I like not just think about this for myself, but really put it into practice of helping others think about it too. And you know, not as formal of a way as what we went through, but in those like day to day one-on-ones and informal situations and just, any opportunity where I can help bring light to it and our interactions. Yeah.

Host: 35:41

So good. I'm glad because that's my experience of you. I absolutely think you're a coach and a facilitator as well as delivering on your job title and you know, your other responsibilities. But I think that's how you help people get better is you actively and consciously and transparently are, you're very transparent about your practice and you're inviting other people to participate. So that's my experience of you. Let's go back into what you remember. I always ask people what they remember because I'm curious how we learn anything, right? How do we learn anything? And which is why it's totally fine to say, Russ, I don't remember a thing above workshop. I forgot your name. I called you Ron. I don't remember anything. And it's like, that's fine. It's so fine. I'm not asking from a judgmental place or testing. I'm asking because I'm curious how I, we or anyone learns anything. So this is why all the questions around what do you remember? Do you remember the second part? We did call to action and demand. Remember the scenes we did from famous movies? Do you remember that?

Holly Enneking: 36:50

Oh, Russ. That's probably my overriding memory. So for this exercise, we were either in pairs or individually given a monologue or a scene to perform together, which basically anything involving any sort of play acting is just like red sirens. I'm running away from it as fast as I possibly can, like just my personal nightmare. And so I was given a monologue, so I was going to be performing alone and I was giving a very long monologue from Jaws. The scene about the Indianapolis and I remember getting it and I went into the bathroom and I had a very good cry and I was like, can I just leave right now? Like, can I just quit? Is that an option for me to just walk away? And uh, unfortunately we were in Colorado, which is a very far away from Indiana and I was not going to reasonably get on an airplane right then and I didn't feel like that was probably the right move to make. So I was like, alright, I'm here. I'm going to suck it up, I'm going to do it. And the way I'm going to do it as I'm going to volunteer to go first and I'm going to just put my foot down and say I have to do it and I have to get through it. And, I did. I got through it and then you looked at me and you said, let's do it again. Made me go through the second time. And the entire time I was just screaming inside like, Oh, I was just so uncomfortable and it was so difficult and I just felt like, Oh, I'm just doing this so badly. And then looking around the room and everyone was giving me those same smiles that I had, you know, working so hard to get back to everyone else and just like, you're doing great. Like I'm here for you. Like I could just like feel that support for everyone because I knew that they could feel how uncomfortable I was.

Host: 38:35

Do you remember the feedback you got, do you remember the feedback?

Holly Enneking: 38:37

I'm trying to remember. I remember coming out of that I had like a good, bonding experience with, uh, two of the participants in the group who came up to me afterwards and were just like, I just, I, I'm so proud of you for going through that. I could feel how uncomfortable you were and I just, I was rooting for you and I couldn't believe that, that he made you go through it again. It's like I was just rooting for you so hard. I'm so impressed with you. Uh, and the one piece of feedback that I feel it was an overriding thing that I got throughout the entire experience was people telling me that they thought I was very brave, which at the like throughout was like felt like too heavy of a word for the experience. But it became sort of a consistent piece of feedback that I was receiving and sort of opened my eyes to like maybe there is like a certain amount of bravery and like I'm going to do it and I'm going to go first and I'm going to find a way to persevere. But that feedback in particular, like that idea has really stuck with me.

Host: 39:38

There's without fear, there's no courage. Also the feedback you got turned out to be an exercise in leadership because people started following you. People started saying, Oh, I want to be as brave as that. I want to be as courageous. I want to be that person who goes from being locked in a stall in a bathroom to going first and just putting the needs of the audience ahead of their own is just so profound. Especially when your needs are to run away and to burn the building down and just torch the entire process and move to a different country and change your name. Right? That's, that's how it feels you want to do. And yet you don't, you grab the counter and you take a deep breath and you come back into the room and you do it and the audience goes, I want to follow that person. I want to know what she thinks about things. I want to know how she strategizes I want to know what her practice is. Well, it comes up for me around that is what's the difference between authority and leadership? How would you take a swing at that?

Holly Enneking: 40:40

What I would see as the main difference between authority and leadership is the concept of vulnerability. That authority comes from, you know, being right and um, sort of exerting your power and your perspective and sort of putting a foot down or a stake in the ground to go in a certain way. I think leadership is more collaborative and more open to not having all the answers or necessarily knowing the right way. And inviting other people into that process. But then being willing to take on the responsibility of having to make a call and decide which way to really go. But I think there's that vulnerability of being open and embracing other perspectives and viewpoints in order to lead a group in a particular direction. I think that would be the difference.

Host: 41:32

That works for me.

Holly Enneking: 41:34

Somebody might be listening who is listening because they've heard about Connection Lab and this is a really safe way to kind of listen and learn about it and experience it because they are terrified to get up on stage. They are, they cry. Uh, they are nervous. They are nauseous, that it's not only the last thing in the world they want to do it is after the last thing in the world they want to do and they're listening to you and they're probably crying because even the idea that maybe I can do this makes them cry. How would you talk to them? I would say that I had an incredible love hate relationship with the Leadership Journey and that, as you said, every fiber of my being made me want to run away from it. But I made the decision that if I was going to be a part of this program and if I was going to put some of my time and energy into completing this, that I wanted to just give it everything I had, even though it felt like torture in some cases. And what I've found was that I got so much more value out of it than I ever could have imagined. I honestly look at this program as just like a true watershed moment for myself of finding a voice that I didn't know I possessed. Um, and finding a comfort in myself that didn't feel achievable to me. I'm even getting teary eyed talking about it right now. Cause like I said, I'm a crier, but it like really unlocked this sort of power that I didn't, I wouldn't have guessed that I had to get through something that was so challenging.

Host: 43:18

Yeah. And we're breathing, breathing, taking a breath. And we're breathing- emotion is fine.

Holly Enneking: 43:24

Yeah. Emotion is wonderful. It is. I think if I've learned anything, I've learned that cause I'm a very emotive person, I'm very transparent with how I'm feeling. I'm not afraid. I've never been afraid to wear my heart on my sleeve and to be open with that. And if anything, I've learned that by doing that it gives other permission to other people permission to do the same thing, which I think we crave in a lot of ways. I think sometimes we're just looking for someone to let us know that it's okay to have that emotion and to say out loud that you're scared or to say out loud that you're nervous or that you're frustrated or that you're struggling. I've sort of made it my personal mission to bring that to conversations that I'm in, to give other people that permission because I think we all want it. We just don't always know that it's there.

Host: 44:08

Well, and it means the world to me that you do that it means the absolute world to me. And that's why I follow you. I consider you one of my personal leaders because I just think your relationship to this work is just so amazing and so useful for people in the world who don't think they can do it. I have one more question for you and then I'm going to ask you if you have any questions for me. Okay. Are you going to listen to this podcast, this interview with you? I am. Good. Good. High five. Thank you. Yup.

Holly Enneking: 44:40

And I'm going to share it with others.

Host: 44:41

Good. That makes me so happy.

Holly Enneking: 44:43

Yeah. I, I honestly am so proud. There's so much that I did during this program that makes me very, very proud. Um, one of the, later sessions that we had, which was one of the virtual ones, I think we had, we had to do a presentation of our vision of leadership. And it was supposed to be, it was like, Oh, it can be anything. It should be something creative. It should be, they could be a presentation, like a power point presentation, but you can do a video or something else. And I was like, Oh, okay. I'm the marketer in the room, I'll do something creative. And I ended up writing like a poem, like a slam poetry sort of thing. And I spent a lot of time on it and I was really proud of it. I still have a lot of it memorized honestly. And I was, but then it turned out that everyone else just did PowerPoint presentation. So I felt a little silly. But then I was also like, you know what? Like I said, I was going to just give it my all, I was going to put everything I had into this and that was me like showing up and giving it my all. And I was so proud that I had done it. And then I shared the video with everyone from the CEO to every person on my team. And it was like something that I came out of it like six months ago Holly never would have done this. And here I am.

Host: 45:54

So great. Do you have any questions for me?

Holly Enneking: 45:58

I do. So I said that one of the things that I have really taken as a responsibility for myself is how I can bring parts of this practice to people who are in sort of my day to day world. I would love your suggestions on like what are the right messages to start with. Is it, you know, breathing and relationship to that, like the ideas of the trifecta of relationship to yourself and to your content and to your audience. Is it something else? Is it like where's the right like sort of entry point and then what are you think are the more advanced concepts to build in later?

Host: 46:36

Mm. So that depends who you're talking to and what they want to get better at and what they would find useful. Our first job is to meet them where they are by asking them questions, what would be useful, right. What do you want to get better at? Um, before you dive too much further into that conversation cause they're allowed to say nothing, leave me alone. So that's totally legitimate and fine and you get to say thank you. Have a good day. If they start listing things that they want to get better at, you can start telling stories about moments when you struggled with what you were trying to get better at. Lead by example, model, right? That way we can build some trust. Then say, you know what? Show them the Six Box. Which of these three questions jumps out at which of these three relationships jumps out at you? How do you think the top three questions relate to the bottom three questions or why the bottom three relationships and get them to speak to it and then leave it alone. Leave them with the one sheet and then say, can we talk about this again in a week or two weeks? And then have them come back and say, you know, I spent some time thinking about this and here's what I think about this and here's what I think about this. What we're doing is inspiring a developmental conversation instead of a technical one. And this person can be above you in the authority chain or below you or a side by side. What we share as human beings is our own Leadership Journey. So meet people where they are, invite them to explore the questions in their relationships and then talk about your experience and do what you're doing, which is model and say, look, you know, I hate this stuff. Oh my God, this is not my choice to rest and relax. This is the opposite. And yet it's precisely what I want to get better at. And the fact that it's on the polar opposite of what I would choose to do if I were relaxed and chill is just interesting. Nothing more. Um, and then larger subjects are going to emerge, right? Then specifics what, but what it all funnels down to is forms of stress and how we show up under it. Right? Here's what's stressful for me because what's stressful for me might be different than what's stressful for you. And so let's talk, is that a form of stress? Are you noticing, remember the definition of success is notice, don't judge, don't correct. And if you do, judge, isn't that interesting if you do? Correct. Isn't that interesting? Permission to fail and get up and try again. Does that answer your question?

Holly Enneking: 49:21

It does. That was beautiful. Thank you.

Host: 49:22

Cool. You and I will talk again soon. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for sharing and for your incredible work. I really, really appreciate it.

Holly Enneking: 49:31

Thank you so much. I, I think I could tell you every day that I'm thankful for going through this program and it still would not begin to capture how thankful I am, so thank you Russ.

Host: 49:41

So if you're listening to this and maybe somebody recommended you tune into this podcast, first of all, thank you for doing so. If you want to get more information and find out more about what we're talking about specifically, you can go to podcast.connectionlaboratory.com and that has the menu that we discussed with the Six Box model and some of the questions and distinctions. Also, you can just visit the website connectionlaboratory.com it breaks down everything that we offer. It talks about client experience, it talks about all the programs, all the information is there. If you want to find out more connectionlaboratory.com that's the place to go. We continue our conversations. Now we're talking to Jane Nicol in Calgary, Alberta. Hello Jay. Hello Russell. Tell us who you're working for and what you do.

Jay Nicol: 50:23

Well, right now I work on a software implementation projects in corporate offices in Western Canada. I'm a n independent contractor right now and I'm currently contracting with a management consulting firm at a large oil and gas company in Calgary.

Host: 50:41

Nice. How do you and I know each other?

Jay Nicol: 50:43

Oh, we go way back Russell. I'm trying not to laugh. Grade eight and high school, so I think everyone knows what that's like. Yeah.

Host: 50:56

So this is hometown corner. Every now and then I bring in an old friend to chat about this work and this week it's my friend Jay. So for those of you listening and some of you might be listening who know both Jay and I are going to roll their eyes go, Oh my God, the conversation continues from grade eight in Sutherland in North Vancouver.

Jay Nicol: 51:14

How did that happen?

Host: 51:14

I really don't know. So very recently you and I had a conversation about personal development and you've kind of heard snippets of what I do. And how I do it. And you kind of approached me with your hand up to say, Hey, would you know, what would your methodology be useful in some of the stuff that I'm dealing with? And so I, I shared with you this Six Box Model and the one page, which I believe you have. And so you're very new to this work even though you're certainly not new to me and how this all kind of unfolded over the past few decades, but specifically this methodology you're kind of fresh with. What did you, what do you remember about that early conversation and meeting this methodology for the first time?

Jay Nicol: 52:05

Yeah, and I, I think, um, from my perspective there was a great deal of curiosity. Um, and you and I have had this conversation now for more than 10 years. I don't know how many more, but sort of this convergence where you're focused and some of the business activities that I'm focused in, and in our two worlds, although we did meet in grade eight, our, our worlds were aligned at that point. But from a business context, uh, our worlds have been on this, uh, path and, and they, they're crossing over at this point from my perspective. I was very, very curious where you had come to with this, this program and, and what the content really looked like and what it meant. You are quite right in saying that at the time when we sat down and had this conversation, I'd had some things going on in my personal life and seeking answers. Um, that didn't really overlap for me until you started talking about, what is, is really a context around communications and relationships and the big bright light bulb kind of went off. Uh, you know, it makes sense to me in a business context, but it also made sense to me, when reflecting on some of those issues in my personal life. Did that surprise you? Yes and no. I guess in some way I was ready for that, but I'll say, no, I've done this in the past and taken other business tools and knowledge from the business world and applied it to my personal life with some success. So I, I would be naive if I said it surprised me.

Host: 54:18

Right? So now you have, so we've talked about this, about this Six Box Model and of course I introduced the three primary questions and the three primary relationships. And your instinct was to do a deep dive instantly and do all of it, which I thought was magnificent and not surprising as that is how you tackle things generally is the deep dive. That's my experience of you. And more recently you've taken kind of a larger overview of all Six Boxes and maybe more, can you speak to that transition and what happened?

Jay Nicol: 54:52

Yeah, well, the comment in my email is, we've chatted a little bit back and forth on this and I, you're right, is, is I do deep dive. I have, I have no problems and that, you know, I need development, I need self-improvement. I always look for, you know, how can I get better? How can I do things better? And, and I was very focused on this. How do I show up under stress? There aren't many things in this world that stress me out. However, when I get stressed, this question of how do I show up under stress is very meaningful. Uh, so, so I did spend quite a bit of time reflecting on that and what it really meant and trying to dissect it. And then I said, as I said, I had to step back, look at the whole big picture of things and really assess, um, you know, what else? And that's when I tripped over content. And, and when you, you take this out of the business world where, where I see value in this as somebody that presents and facilitates workshops, I see value in this. When I take this tool and I apply it to my personal life and my personal issues, when you look at content, it's like, well, who, what is that? And it's me and many things about me. So it was, that was a bit of a surprise, but, but it's really taking your, to your, your tool from a business context into that personal life and it changes the flavor of some of these things.

Host: 56:43

Yeah. So there are people listening to us right now nodding, relating to what you're saying because they came to it from a business perspective and they saw that it affected all their relationships. That I get a lot of feedback that people, uh, you know, their, their relationship. I get emails, I've gotten emails from spouses when participants go home and, you know, a spouse will email me and say, uh, he came home and said I had Brown eyes and I didn't, I burst into tears. I haven't felt particularly seen or heard in our relationship in a long time. And he did your workshop and he came home and he looked at me and was curious about me and started speaking about, you know, what I looked like to him and what I meant to him and inviting me into relationship. And it has improved our, our relationship dramatically. And now we have a path forward. And it's never been more exciting than it is now. So these sweeping amazing emails about how a professional business oriented workshop has affected personal lives. So I don't expect your surprise that personal lives are effected. And yet you're coming at it from the other way. You're introducing this work from a very private conversation between you and I. And thank you by the way, for being kind of public about it now, even though we're not really discussing the content which isn't necessary, although you've just identified tripping over the content. What is your content?

Jay Nicol: 58:12

Yeah, I, and I, I guess I need to spend a little bit of time, uh, really assessing that. Um, I think like many people, I'm a pretty complex creature and although you know, you, you and I personally have a relationship we've been on the football field together. So, you know, some of my victories and some of my past and, and when I stop and think about it, I have quite a bit of content. There's quite a bit there. I'm not, well accustomed to sharing that or presenting it. Well. U m, so that's an interesting, you know, what is my relationship with my content, you know? And, it's an interesting question. Yeah.

Host: 59:03

And I absolutely agree. You're one of the people I refer to as smart. You're somebody I would talk to and identify as a smart person and somebody who is so smart that it can get in the way that my relationship with content can start to eclipse other valuable relationships because I'm so good at being smart and my content is so effective and so valuable and I'm rewarded in the marketplace and in, you know, professional circumstances that why wouldn't I lean on my content all the time? I seem to get so much out of it. And yet it's only part of what makes you valuable in the workplace and in the community and in your family and so on. Does that make sense? Well, it does make sense

Jay Nicol: 59:46

Actually, I'm glad you went there. That's a good segue because it does get in the way sometimes and lots of people are smart. Lots of people are smart in different ways. I'm a highly analytical person and I've been fortunate enough to, to carve out a career that leverages that, that ability. Um, and I enjoy the work I do, but I have a coworker, a project manager I'm working with right now that sort of identified this as well. And, and, I quite enjoy facilitating meetings, creating conversations with professionals, extracting some of the business knowledge and artifacts that we need to generate to drive a project forward. So when we talk about, uh, what I want to get better at and, and talk about audience, I now have learned that my intellectual ability gets in the way of developing that relationship with my audience. Somebody else in the room says something smart and my gray matter goes away on this processing, processing, assessing, trying to, uh, state it into this context of knowledge that I'm building. And, what I'm learning now is that I don't always do that at the right time, uh, audiences interesting. It's very obvious if I call a meeting, facilitating a meeting, when that meeting's done, that's still my audience. And actually when somebody comes up to me after that meeting with a comment or a question, I think it's more important that I be engaged in the moment with that audience member where my, my natural response is to be processing that information, that I've just learned. So yeah, thanks for calling me smart. But sometimes it's not, it's not always a good thing. I've got to turn it off,

Host: 1:01:58

Right? Well, yes. And just isn't that interesting? It's not right. It's not wrong. It's not good. It's not bad. It just is that at a moment when there's an opportunity for me to enhance relationship and co=create and collaborate and invite and offer, what I do is go into head and process and analyze and, and squeeze value out of what I've just heard. And I just think you're not the only person who deals with this. I think it's an extremely common challenge for smart professionals and the fact that you're willing to talk about it, I think is really useful. In fact, this is why we have the podcast, because I want to talk to people about the transition, the awareness reconciling how I might want to show up under stress, what I might want to get better at. What's the competency? If you were to identify a competency, what kind of language would you start to play with? How about making that transition?

Jay Nicol: 1:03:01

It's an interesting question. I am highly analytical and I do reflect upon myself. I'm not afraid to stand in front of the mirror and put that analytical ability eyes on myself and ask that question is questions, what do I want to get better? And it's, that's an interesting competency. But, I think self improvement is being open to self improvement is probably a good start.

Host: 1:03:32

Yeah. So not for nothing. This is a really hard question, right? We throw it out like it's easy. Oh, what do you want to get better at? It's such a simple question. And so many of the people I work with in senior positions, you know, talk about, Oh, I want to get better at everything, which is generally a copout identifying the competency. Because what I want to pull away from is that it's miraculous. It's a breath of heaven. Some people are good at it, some people are not. Whatever it is that I'm missing that they have, I just don't buy that for a second. People are practiced at competencies and the way to identify the competency is to practice writing stuff down and go, is it getting present? Is it being curious, being curious, a competency? Ooh, I think maybe it is. I should play with that or maybe I, you know, maybe I should look at that. What's, what's a competency? Because playing the piano is easy. All I have to do is practice a hundred hours a week. All right? All I have to do is do the scales. No, no, no, no, no. Right. The competency of playing the piano, the competency of being a farmer, the competency of being a software technician, right? Your competency is what makes you valuable at your position. But what competency is going to help me allow my intelligence and now analytic ability and invite another relationship. Allow that and yet emphasize another competency relationship with the audience. Be curious. So I find that's a good one is be curious, but maybe that doesn't resonate for you, but that's the question. What's the competency and permission to get it wrong a hundred times before I get it. Right. Does that make sense?

Jay Nicol: 1:05:20

It does. It does. And, and I think, I think I can respond to that because, cause one of the things that I bring to the table in business is just collaboration and teamwork. Uh, and if I have a competency and, and you know where I learned that because I've often said the things I've learned about teamwork, I learned on the football field

Host: 1:05:44

and in martial arts ironically.

Jay Nicol: 1:05:47

yeah, yeah. Um, you know, in a lot of ways, a lot of ways through, through life. But, uh, collaborating with, with people for me is, is a very personal inner drive. Um, you know, we're all kind of put on the planet on our own, but we're never really alone. If we don't collaborate and play well with others, we're missing out on a lot of fun.

Host: 1:06:16

Mm. Tremendous. So I have one more question for you and then I'm going to ask you if you have any questions for me. Okay? Okay. The question is, are you going to listen to yourself in this podcast?

Jay Nicol: 1:06:27

Yes. I actually, I plan to go back and listen to all the podcasts and I guess that includes myself, but you're saying I should really listen to what I've said and understand where it came from.

Host: 1:06:43

That's so funny. So good. I'm glad you're going to listen. And that's its own thing I ask people I talk to if they're going to listen and you should hear, you know, uh, that it might be hard for some people that they expressed that, you know, I don't know how comfortable I'll be, but I feel like as part of the practice and ultimately, you know, we'll see how it goes. But I'm always curious if they'll take the opportunity to listen to themselves on the podcast and use it as an opportunity to practice. And it's totally fine if the answer's no and it's totally fine. If the answer is a quick yes, I'm kind of not attached to the answer. I'm far more interested in the practice of asking the question and the value of asking the question. So I'm so glad that you're going to tune it out. I think that's great. Not that I wouldn't have been happy if you said absolutely not. Excellent. Do you have any questions for me?

Jay Nicol: 1:07:32

Well, I want to get better at audience. Yeah. And that means a lot of things. It now makes sense to me in the context of my work life professionally. Um, but it's one of those issues that, that also, um, makes sense to me personally. And, uh, I, you know, I need some time to work with this and, uh, I don't really have any well thought out specific questions today, other than, uh, how can we do more of this and, and, you know, when can we find some time to do another deep dive?

Host: 1:08:16

So the answer is soon. You and I, you know, can communicate pretty regularly as we have for the past years. Um, so, uh, as you know, I'm happy to speak to you any time about this and I'm, I just want to say how proud I am of you because you and I have known each other for a long time and uh, I adore you as a friend and as a professional and the fact that you're diving into this work now is just, just means the world to me and your feedback and how you talk about it I just think is tremendous. So the answer is soon. As soon as we like, I mean, I'm probably gonna want to rest after we record this, but after that, um, we will talk about, uh, booking our own little zoom call. In fact, I'm probably going to circle back to everybody I talked to in this process because I'm just so pleased and proud and grateful. So the answer is soon. Okay. Okay. Thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your thoughts about this methodology and your experience. It. It means the world and as always, go out there and yeah, crush it, dude.

Jay Nicol: 1:09:19

I'll do my best. Thank you Russell.

Host: 1:09:22

That's our show today. I want to again thank Eric Edelman and Holly Enneking and Jay Nicol for joining me as guests and participants collaborating with me and co-creating. I think one of the themes of our episode today is predisposition. How am I predisposed the way I think, the way I feel, what I want, my experience, how does that get in the way of getting present with somebody and meeting them where they are and really just being curious about them. So that's going to be our homework. As you listen to this and come on, you've listened to the whole freaking thing. So there's going to be homework and here's what it is. I want you for homework to notice your predispositions. Just notice them as much as possible, right? It could be geographical, it could be language, it could be racial, religion, gender, sexuality. It doesn't matter your predispositions. What matters is, can I notice them, especially under stress and can I notice them without judgment or correction. I say it like it's easy. So that's our show for today. This is Lab Notes, the Connection Lab podcast. My name is Russ Hamilton. I'm your host. I'm so, so thankful you tuned in and I can't wait until we get to do our next show. Thank you for listening to Lab Notes, the Connection Lab Podcast. For more information about our workshops and executive development programs, you can email us info@connectionlaboratory.com or go to our website at www.connectionlaboratory.com.